I am cross-posting a comment I just made on a 400+ thread at the broken toys blog because I think buried in a bunch of really ugly muck is an extremely interesting question, and I’d rather participate in a conversation that is moderated.
The background of this very extensive conversation can be found here:
* Professor Robert Bloomfield‘s interview of game legend Richard Bartle on the weekly Metanomics show in Second Life on March 10, 2008.
* Prokofy Neva’s initial response to the interview, “Busting the Backchat” on the Second Thoughts blog.
* The 400+ comment thread that occurred as a result of broken toy’s response to Prokofy.
My cross-posted comment:
Scott Jennings: You are not an idiot, but you have most certainly done a terrible job of moderating this thread.
Prokofy: This is the key for me, “..ponder what it means for the poor Chinese boys of the world to be game-golding in WOW and being punishment (sic), even with threat of real-life prosecution, and the transfer of wealth this indicates, and the turfing out of games everywhere of poor people who grab at the big online economy to try to advance themselves.”
This is where my previous experience as a “geek gamer grrrl” begins to look like what it was – child’s play. And there are many more playing, and that play can be very beneficial and can and should be, for want of a better word, protected. The social activity occurring in many game worlds is all about learning to socialize, learning to lead, learning to cooperate, learning to think and strategize – and by being bound by the rules of the game, there is a structure enforced upon this play that I believe helps guide it. Having centralized goals, “kill the dragon, get the sword,” enables and drives the building of real community (admittedly a word that I think means different things to you and I, but bear with me here) because without a common purpose there would be none and for many players (not residents, or citizens, or consumers, or workers, or gold-farmers) it is their first experience with having a real influence on a real community. I think of many guilds and many other online communities as a social good, in political terms, they’re beginning to replace some parts of the civic culture that is so crucial to democracy, a civic culture that at least in American society is dying out – think bowling leagues and card party circles and even church circles.
Now to your greater point, yes, it is certainly true that the privilege to play a game is one not shared by all. The hypothetical “Chinese boys” that I imagine in the context of your statement do not have the luxury to play any other game than the Game of Life, eat or be eaten, do what one must or can to fill the belly. Poverty and extreme deprivation are very, very real and at the crux of whatever else I may disagree with you about, I do agree with you on this point – when the “game” enjoyed by “players” in developed nations starts enforcing the “game” rules with real world imprisonment (because it hurts their bottom line), then it is no longer just a “game” at all. It is something else, no matter how badly the “players” wish it were just a safe game to play. It is a business, it is an economic force, it is or can be a society. It can be many things but it cannot be “just” a game. You don’t go to jail for breaking the rules of a football game, you go to jail for breaking the rules of a state. When selling your sword on ebay might land you in jail, and when the sword, or more accurately the labor to get the sword is worth more than the labor to do something else, we’re not talking about _games_ any more.
I don’t know the answer to this question you raised, but it is a terribly important one and I do sincerely laud you for asking it. I’ll be thinking about it perhaps for the rest of my life, both real and virtual.
To Richard Bartle and the other posters of this forum: Diatribes and invectives and hurled insults aside, you should have a conscience that is offended by at least parts of the paradigm you’re engaged in. I mudded, I played MMO(RPGs), I experienced the wonder, the joy, the pure unadulterated _fun_ that is perhaps uniquely to be found in game worlds. I even fell in love with all the exuberance of every dumb game wedding you’ve ever heard about, crashed, or took part in (I was 19, after all, and found my soul mate, what’s a girl to do but marry the guy on Mahn Tor where we met, whether it exists “for real” or not? And I only mention this as proof of my street cred and/or youthful immersion, as it were).
It was fun and I loved it. But I’m also very aware that it was a privilege, and one that I can still enjoy from time to time, but when I’m not playing in it, I’m learning and working in the real world to make it so that others can have that privilege to play. Your sword is not worth more than another person’s ability to feed herself, is it? You can ignore the larger questions, you can have your fun, but if you have a social conscience, you really should be thinking about the larger questions, and seeking answers to them.
It is NOT just a question of whether RMT suits your “playstyle” or not, it’s that RMT in an economy as large as that of WOW’s, that Neil cites as a “fast forward to get over the boring parts”, can also be a fast forward to “making a better living than my geopolitical location otherwise allows me”. The latter is what “gold farming” is for some, or MOST IMPORTANTLY – WHAT IT MAY POTENTIALLY BE as virtual worlds AND game worlds continue to evolve – and you simply cannot trivialize and dismiss that.
For the tl;dr crowd, my final point: If you’re really a gamer, like really? Then you’ve done your share of grinding and in your heart of hearts, some of it felt like _work_. Like real world boring ass work. Like this sucks work. Now ask yourself how you could be better spending that time. In real space or virtual. Time is short, life is short, and grinding is for the birds. There are better things to do with your life.
I am cross-posting this to my own blog and I _will_ be doing a better job of moderating any comments that may come in, so be forewarned. If you’d like to carry on a conversation and exploration of this topic, feel free to join me there.
Prok is so much fun. She is one of my favorite teachers. Need to bring Cor out to play…Prok is often very right…just not cuddly.
Understanding Prok’s exodus from grinding in the Sims to SL- teaches alot.
Meanwhile in the “real world” academics (no slight intended Fleep- I do love my teachers) move in circles.
Time is short, life is short…
-wayne
there is a structure enforced upon this play that I believe helps guide it. Having centralized goals, “kill the dragon, get the sword,†enables and drives the building of real community (admittedly a word that I think means different things to you and I, but bear with me here) because without a common purpose there would be none and for many players (not residents, or citizens, or consumers, or workers, or gold-farmers) it is their first experience with having a real influence on a real community.
This, to me, is one of the reasons I make these games, and why I make them this way. Players who step inside of these virtual worlds bring aspirational fantasies – they don’t want to feel small, unimportant, like a cog in a machine. They can get that in real life. They step into MMOs to be exceptional.
Now then, some people are capable of finding their own fun. And some people truly are exceptional, and are capable of great creativity inside of online game environments (and this is true not just of Second Life but also games like WoW and EQ2 – look, for example, at the huge machinima communities in these games). But many people are not exceptional, and are at loose ends if you tell them just go ‘find something cool’. They need to be guided. Classic RPG structures help this a great deal, but are not the only solution.
Now to your greater point, yes, it is certainly true that the privilege to play a game is one not shared by all. The hypothetical “Chinese boys†that I imagine in the context of your statement do not have the luxury to play any other game than the Game of Life, eat or be eaten, do what one must or can to fill the belly. Poverty and extreme deprivation are very, very real and at the crux of whatever else I may disagree with you about, I do agree with you on this point – when the “game†enjoyed by “players†in developed nations starts enforcing the “game†rules with real world imprisonment (because it hurts their bottom line), then it is no longer just a “game†at all. It is something else, no matter how badly the “players†wish it were just a safe game to play. It is a business, it is an economic force, it is or can be a society. It can be many things but it cannot be “just†a game. You don’t go to jail for breaking the rules of a football game, you go to jail for breaking the rules of a state. When selling your sword on ebay might land you in jail, and when the sword, or more accurately the labor to get the sword is worth more than the labor to do something else, we’re not talking about _games_ any more.
You raise an interesting question, but I remain unconvinced. There certainly ARE legal ramifications to cheating in sports. Barry Bonds is currently facing legal sanctions for steroid use (as well as congressional inquiries!). The New England Patriots have been sanctioned not only by the league, but also are facing lawsuits from opposing teams as well as some fans (!) for supposedly cheating in the Superbowl recently. Whether or not these lawsuits will be successful remains to be seen, but the fact of the matter is that people see the integrity of the game as being this important. The NFL and MLB certainly does – if they cannot convince the fans that these teams are playing on a fair and equal playing field, the games will cease to be compelling to many, and football and baseball will start to die.
This parallels RMT very clearly: arguments about RMT almost always can be reduced to arguments about fairness, which is ultimately about the integrity of the game. The players of these games feel that RMT is an unfair advantage over those who do not use it. Whether or not this is true is almost irrelevant – in the MMO marketplace, where people can vote with their feet, today’s market will tend to reject it. This is the primary reason to take RMT on seriously.
As for whether or not this is an economic force that can help or hurt a developing country — so is cocaine and opium, but I doubt one would be inclined to recommend we all start partying more in order to help the farmers in Columbia. If you have a game where RMT complements the game and the player base welcomes it as a desired feature, then it’s a bonus to help out there, but in my mind, it’s not a good enough reason to try to include it on its own merits.
Ultimately, the what’s right for a given virtual world must always come first.
Since you addressed me directly…
>Diatribes and invectives and hurled insults aside
Diatribes, OK, but invectives and hurled insults? Where in that thread am I guilty of that?
>you should have a conscience that is offended by at least parts of the paradigm you’re engaged in.
On the whole, I believe that the positive aspects of virtual worlds far outweigh the negative aspects. However, if the negative aspects get too much purchase, the positive aspects will be dragged beneath the waves and drowned.
>Your sword is not worth more than another person’s ability to feed herself, is it?
Is this an argument for RMT or against it?
In an anti-RMT game world, no, my sword is not worth more than someone’s ability to feed themselves. My sword is worth nothing at all. It’s only people who indulge in RMT that give it any real-world value.
In a pro-RMT world, again, my sword is not worth more than someone’s ability to feed themselves. Neither is much else, though. Do you watch TV, consume alcohol, go on vacation, attend sports events or buy clothes for any purpose other than keeping warm? Is any of that worth more than someone’s ability to feed themselves?
>if you have a social conscience, you really should be thinking about the larger questions, and seeking answers to them.
I can’t make one iota of difference to the situation in Darfur. I can, however, make a big difference in virtual worlds. Virtual worlds give people the freedom to be and become who they are; that’s why I do this – it’s a freedom thing. Sure, it’s not stopping people from starving to death, but it’s changing the world for the better.
>It is NOT just a question of whether RMT suits your “playstyle†or not
You have the wrong emphasis. You should have put “It is not JUST a question of whether RMT suits your “playstyle†or not”. There are many factors that are involved here, and your characterisation of RMT as a binary good/bad thing dismisses other issues that are also important.
For example, developers could, if they wish, simply give away everything that RMT exists to serve. You want a level 70 WoW warlock decked out in top of the range gear? OK, fill in the specification form, click the button, and voila! You have one. Are you happy? Well no, you’re not, because now there’s no game. But if you pay for it using real money, that means it is OK? Well no, it’s still a bad idea; it’s still going to kill the game.
If you allow unconstrained RMT, then the virtual world will die. The parasite will kill the host. The only reason RMT succeeds as a business model in anti-RMT game worlds is because so much effort is put in to stamping it out. If it were allowed to continue unfettered, supply would outstrip demand, and then you couldn’t make a decent living in China or Indonesia or wherever from grinding out gold to sell to people. They’d have to find another way to feed themselves.
>can also be a fast forward to “making a better living than my geopolitical location otherwise allows meâ€.
Using this argument, we should encourage farmers in Afghanistan to grow as much opium as they can, and persuade those Colombian coffee-growers that they should switch to coca. Is that something you would support?
How about something less contentious: university essays. If you need to write an essay as part of your degree, you can either do it yourself (“grinding” it) or you can pay someone else to write it. There are scores of sites available that will do this. You’re paying for someone, perhaps a well-educated, English-speaking individual in India, to do your work for you. That person needs people to cheat at university essay-writing to put food on the table. Should you therefore condone the practice of outsourcing essay-writing? After all, people will starve if you clamp down on it.
>The latter is what “gold farming†is for some, or MOST IMPORTANTLY – WHAT IT MAY POTENTIALLY BE as virtual worlds AND game worlds continue to evolve – and you simply cannot trivialize and dismiss that.
You’re right, you can’t, but if what they’re doing destroys the very market that their actions are reliant on, we end up with no virtual worlds and they still need to find some way of feeding themselves.
I have to say, I’m more than a little alarmed that you seem to believe that none of us have thought any of this through. I’ve been working with virtual worlds for nearly 30 years, and OF COURSE I’ve wondered whether I’m doing more harm than good. I’m not some crazed do-it-if-it-makes-money person who doesn’t even want to think of the consequences. Neither (despite what Prok seems to think) am I some kind of the-system-not-the-individual person. Designers do get crises of conscience. If they didn’t they shouldn’t be designers.
There are multiple virtual worlds with multiple reasons people play. Undermine the reasons people play, and they won’t play. Then you’re left arguing what this year’s catch of cod should be when there’s no code left to catch.
Richard
Richard,
curious- as it could be a game. Code or cod?
-wayne
Well, I waded through the original debate..
I’ll not comment on the posts – as always, Prokofy’s valid points are lost in the maelstrom of antagonism from both sides.
But to return to the crux of the issue and RMT. I think the issue is moot in the long run. More and more games are designed to place emphasis on skills learned, not items or levels gained. A 75 DMG sword bought with money would make no difference then – because the user would not be able to use it.
[…] I suck at moderating blogs. […]
Wayne Porter>curious- as it could be a game. Code or cod?
I meant cod.
I was alluding to the fishing quotas that are set by international organisations, for example the EU. They have set aside vast swathes of the sea as no-fishing areas, and restricted the amount of fish that can be caught in other areas (“quotas”). This has caused terrible hardship to fishing communities, where people whose families have been fishing for generations are put out of work. However, if this action were not taken, then in a couple of decades there’d be no fish left anyway and the fishing communities would still suffer.
By analogy, if we let gold farmers walk all over non-RMT worlds, they will drive away all those people who want some sense of achievement in what they’ve done. The RMTers, faced with only competing with/against each other, will follow. We’ll end up with only rumps of non-RMT worlds, and therefore the people who rely on RMT to keep their children fed will be out of a job. We’d then be in the position of arguing about gold farming when it has killed off non-RMT worlds (and therefore itself).
To address the general point: Mr Bartle, whatever happened to your precious statement: “if you rely on the opinions of others, then you have not completed your Hero’s Journey” that you place so much faith in?
To address the specific point:
“If it were allowed to continue unfettered, supply would outstrip demand, and then you couldn’t make a decent living in China or Indonesia or wherever from grinding out gold to sell to people. They’d have to find another way to feed themselves.”
Then supply would bounce back down, the gold supply would be reduced, and gold farming would become profitable again. Your statement here is not consistent with basic economic principles of supply and demand.
Taemojitsu>Mr Bartle
What’s with the “Mr Bartle”?
>whatever happened to your precious statement: “if you rely on the opinions of others, then you have not completed your Hero’s Journey†that you place so much faith in?
Er, nothing happened to it?
>Then supply would bounce back down, the gold supply would be reduced, and gold farming would become profitable again.
It would be nice if it did, but why would people come back to a non-RMT world knowing it was just going to get invaded by gold farmers again?
Richard
Well, I always hoped that Metanomics would be the grain of sand that around which pearls of discussion would coalesce. The tenor of the discussion on Prok’s blog and Broken Toys feels a little bit more like a grain of sand in my shoe, but nonetheless a step in the right direction.
As far as the actual content of the debate, I think Scott Jennings of Broken Toys captured it well by saying that “Users of games see virtual worlds as somewhat boring games….Users of virtual worlds see games as somewhat shallow virtual worlds.”
I can see why Prokofy and others would want to express very strong views on the politics of Virtual worlds that are designed to be platforms for commerce (such as Second Life). It is far harder to justify these perspectives for games. Game designers can prohibit side payments among players, just like business organization can prohibit side payments between employees. It doesn’t matter that those side payments could make some people wealthier than they would otherwise be.
Today I interview Nick Yee on his virtual world research, 11am SLT on CMP 1. (http://www.nickyee.com/). Come join for a lightly moderated, largely civil discussion, and let’s see what we can find under another set of rocks.
richard,
Yes- EU sees the Tragedy of the Commons, but I always ask… Asking leads to enlightenment they say. TY.
regards,
Wayne
Wayne Porter>Yes- EU sees the Tragedy of the Commons, but I always ask…
Yes, I was rather obscure in that cod reference – sorry!
Richard
““Users of games see virtual worlds as somewhat boring games….Users of virtual worlds see games as somewhat shallow virtual worlds.—
It’s more accurate to say that person A (for example, Prokofy Neva) perceives person B (for example her ‘game gods’ like Castranova) as perceiving players C-Z (aka players of games, or perhaps industry movers) as being willing to accept the idea that games are somewhat shallow virtual worlds, and virtual worlds are somewhat boring games.
“Er, nothing happened to it?”
In that case, there is no reason for one player to object to another player buying virtual gold to ‘achieve’ something without really achieving it, and as long as the act of farming gold, or power-leveling does not visibly detract from the game experiences of other players, [unsanctioned] RMT poses no threat to MMOs.
I rest my case.~
Taemojitsu>In that case, there is no reason for one player to object to another player buying virtual gold to ‘achieve’ something without really achieving it
Er, yes there is. An individual does rely on the opinions of others while they play – it’s only when they stop relying on that and rely on their opinion of themself that they get to finish the hero’s journey. If people are advancing using RMT, that devalues the opinions people hold of each other (because of the suspicion or fact that you got to where you are through money, not through play).
At the end point, sure, RMT doesn’t make a great deal of difference; on the way to the end point, it’s of paramount importance.
>and as long as the act of farming gold, or power-leveling does not visibly detract from the game experiences of other players, [unsanctioned] RMT poses no threat to MMOs.
OK, if it poses no threat, why don’t game world developers simply give away for free what RMTers make you pay money for? You go to a web site, you fill in the form saying what level character you want, with what gear and how much gold, you click the “submit” button, and voila! Seconds later, that character appears on your account. It would be trivial to create such a system, so why don’t game developers do it?
>I rest my case.~
You may wish to summon more witnesses…
Richard
In that case, there is no reason for one player to object to another player buying virtual gold to ‘achieve’ something without really achieving it, and as long as the act of farming gold, or power-leveling does not visibly detract from the game experiences of other players, [unsanctioned] RMT poses no threat to MMOs.
If you are of the achiever mindset, then someone achieving something without actually achieving something is EXACTLY what detracts from the game experience.